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[WhyteChocolate]

These sorts of discussions nearly always get out of hand, so let's attempt not to get too offensive.

Anyone here religious at all? Anyone entirely against religion?

I did not grow up religious (I've been to church twice in my life, save for occasions like weddings), have one parent who is an absolute diehard atheist, and was myself a diehard atheist in my late teens 'til around 20-21. I've never felt a need to be religious, and railed against those who were during the aforementioned diehard atheist phase. But I could only describe myself as agnostic now for two reasons. The first was an incident I didn't witness alone... makes me sound like a fucking fruitcake, but it had such a dramatic impact on me that I could no longer rule out "afterlife". And the second reason being the inability for anyone to actually know if anything happens after you die (came to this conclusion after the incident). It simply can't be known, at least for now, one way or the other.

Perhaps religion isn't really what I want to discuss at all, though I'd still like to know what y'all identify as; does anyone believe it is possible, impossible, or definite that there is some form of existence that continues beyond life? I have gone from the viewpoint of impossible to possible, will likely never believe it's definite, and will surely never believe it's impossible again.

I'll be away on vacation for a bit, so hopefully there will be a post or two when I return. haha

And no, I have never in my life used any sort of hallucinogenic drug, before you ask. Boring, I know...
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[WolfV11]

I was brought up Lutheran, which really is just like any other christian thing, just without the saints and priests can marry.

In my early to mid teens I was certainly a die hard atheist, after finding way too many contradictions in the bible, and way too many things that just didnt make sense; I stopped believing entirely. I would write essays explaining how a god (in the theistic sense) was impractical and impossible. I also was incredibly outspoken about it and was well known for this in high school. One situation in particular was quite interesting in which I had the ten commandments taken down in a class room because it violated separation of church and state.

From about the age of 17 till this year actually, I considered myself a satanist. Not in the sense that I make sacrifices and worshiped the devil. But I was along the lines of the Anton La Vey Church of Satan path. This wasnt completely serious and I never paid the 200 dollars (or however much it was) to become a full member. But I did use the principles of the Satanic Bible in my life. Which was basically to do what makes me happy and as long as it does not harm anyone else its fine. There were actually many things that made sense from the book, and it fit well because you need to be an atheist first. There is no belief in a superior power, there is no devil worshiping. It simply uses the self treasuring concept of "Satan" to live your life by.

Now, believe it or not, I am more of a Buddhist. A VERY good friend of mine had initially drawn my interest to it, and after reading more and more and applying the concepts in my own life, I found it to be exactly what I needed in life. Let me clarify though that Buddhism is NOT a religion, it is a philosophy. There is no idol worship, there are no things like "Buddhist weddings" and no other things that tend to be wrongly thought of when it comes to Buddhism. If you would like, I can do deeper into why it works and why it is what I follow, it is not an easy thing to explain, so I would really need to think out what I am typing and if no one is going to read it I wont bother

The very fact that it is more complex then "Except Jesus Christ as your savior and your guaranteed happiness......after you die" also plays more into the reasons why I follow it. It is not a simple "believe in this god" or silly golden rules and WWJD themes. It is a complex set of theories that are very very provable. Unlike other belief systems.
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[WhyteChocolate]

What is a god in a non-theistic sense? Please clarify this. And if you'd like to explain your buddhist belief system, I'll read...

I don't rule out god of any sort, nor do I truly believe one exists. I just have no idea at all. I can't say one does because there is no obvious proof, nor can I say one doesn't because again there's no proof.
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[WolfV11]

What I mean by a god in a theistic sense is basically a god who works by methods detailed in things like the bible, that muslim book, and the triangle.

Through Buddhism there are slight ways of disproving the existence of a god however. That and other things I will post in the morning after I've had a cup of coffee. lol.

For a brief period of time I also felt the same way, theres no one way to prove or disprove the existence of such a thing, however as I said before, there are ways through Buddhist philosophies to disprove god. but not exactly, more or less the ability to show why one wouldnt matter anyhow when finding happiness in the world. Belief in a god of some sort does not help one reach happiness, and can actually cause one to find more misery since believing in a god is a form of attachment, and in Buddhist teachings, all forms of attachment can lead to suffering. Buddhism even goes so far to say that one cannot ever attain full enlightenment if you even so much as consider yourself a Buddhist, and at some point you have to stop considering yourself as one if you want to reach enlightenment. I will go all into Dharma in the morning after coffee
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Check out all 7 tracks from my debut album Earth Light on myspace right now!!!!!
www.myspace.com/ericjacksonguitar

[WhyteChocolate]

Hmmm... I read a lot of general info about Buddhism tonight. There were some ideas I thought were good, others not so much; some of the ideas even jive with what I already think. I would, however, classify it as a religion myself, as it requires faith in certain things which can't be proven (rebirth, enlightenment, etc). This isn't negative, as I consider many things religious that others consider purely philosophical or scientific, and I don't think religion is necessarily bad, although it can be.
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[WhyteChocolate]

[WolfV11]

Ok, after enough time I'm gonna jump back into this one.

Reincarnation and Enlightenment are NOT leaps of faith required to be a Buddhist.

I shall explain.

First and most importantly, Buddah himself, and any Dharma teacher, openly encourages questions challenges and theories against what is being taught in Lamrim (Buddahs teachings compiled) The skeptic Carl Sagan once asked the Dali Lama, "if science could fully disprove reincarnation, would Buddhists still believe it?" The Dali Lama replied something to the sort of "Of course! If science fully disproved it, we would abandon it as a theory/fact. But it would be awfully hard to disprove reincarnation." This is true, you cannot actually disprove it.

The first and most important role of Reincarnation (which shall be refered to as Rebirth from here out) is that it is not actually the true logical facts of it, but rather if we live as if it is such. Let me explain, we believe that your actions in this world will effect how you take rebirth. A virtuos mind that has caused considerable good karma, will experience a higher rebirth. (not because he is being judged, but more likely because the brain operates at a higher level and will be able to go through Bardo with a clearer mind. I shall explain Bardo later) But lets say rebirth is not real, that we either just become the classic athiest expression "worm food" or we have some sort of after life. If we live with the mindset of causing good virtuous actions and being a good person, what does it matter what happens after? We have done all these great actions and lived a happy life, and in all honesty, in that case who cares what the hell happens to us after we die! If you live a positive, caring, virtuous life, whats so bad about that? You may use rebirth as motivation to do so, and even if we disrpoved rebirth tomorrow, most Buddhist Monks and Nuns, and followers of the teachings of Buddha would stilll be happy, as that is what we are, peaceful and happy! As compared to disproving God or Jesus for christians, they would go nuts! It is wrong to mistake Rebirth as the main focus of Buddhism, for it is not, it is merely an aspect. Its presumed to be a fact of life and its out of your control. Live peacefully and virtuously and take positive rebirth, or die as worm food and you still lived a great life and made the world a better place for many people. Nitpicking over rebirth is as irrelevant as bitching that chocolate is brown.

Now, here is some evidence to support reincarnation as a theory, if not a fact.
Lets take the example of an iPhone. Every iPhone (for the most part, were not concerned about different versions of it really. i.e. the 3G iPhone or whatever have you. Just the basic concept of the iPhone) is made of the same parts. A screen, buttons, components that make up a cell phone and allow it to work. They all have similar visual features as well (they are all identical because it is machine made) the apple logo, the square on the main button, etc. Notice that every iPhone (ones that work, not malfunctional ones) do the exact same thing. They all make a phone call, they all can surf the internet, they all can have songs put on them, they all can have headphones plugged in, they all connect with bluetooth headsets, etc. If the actual essence of an object is within its parts (which is to a certain degree true for the iPhone. they all have the same parts, and do the EXACT same things) you never have an iPhone that decides on its own not to make a call. or not to go to certain web pages. Of course not its not alive! there is no mind within the iPhone, apple will not implement that until the next version comes out (or so I'm told, it can make coffee for you in the morning)

So we have same parts, same functions. So by this logic, all humans should be completely IDENTICAL. We all have hearts, livers, internal organs, arms, fingers, toes, feet, brains, etc. (we are discrediting those with missing limbs and the handicapped, they are like the malfunctional iPhone. THIS IS NOT A CRITISICM OF THE HANDICAPPED NOTE THIS, I AM NOT SAYING THEY ARE MALFUNCTIONAL, MERELY STATING THAT THEY DO NOT POSSES THE SAME PHYSICAL PROPERTIES AND FUNCTIONS THAT ABLE BODIED PEOPLE DO) By the logic of the iPhone, we do the same basic things all humans do, have the same basic parts. Why is it people are different then??? Why are some people more likely to be socialable, why do we all learn at different rates, why are we all made up of identical things, yet completely different from one another?

Take phobias for instance, a person I know is terrified of birds. She has a legitimate fear of them. If there are birds on TV she changes the channel, if there is a group of pigeons eating bread crumbs on the sidewalk, she will most likely go to the other side. She never had an experience with birds as a child, so there was no traumatic event, she is naturally afraid of birds. Evolutionarily this makes no sense. At no point in human development did ancient primitive humans have to fear birds, we never ran from them, they never had the ability to eat us. We were more concerned with Lions and Panthers eating us (and if you check, there are people who show no fear of such things as well) so even though our most basic programing is to fear certain things. We see cases in which people fear things they shouldnt, and are not afraid of things that evolutionarly (as a mechanism of survival) have been programmed to fear. Where do these strictly mental functions come from?? Im afraid of spiders, ive never had a traumatic experience with them. I've lived in NY all my life so I never had to worry about black widows and the like (such as people in Texas or southern states might) so where does this mental function to create fear come from???
To assume "thats just how it is" is ignorant. Its like not questioning what that giant white thing in the sky at night is, not bothering to learn its a moon and assuming "well thats just how the sky is"

Lets bring in rebirth as a possible theory to why this is.
Take the bird fear as an example again.
Suppose her mind and conscience was that of a field mouse before she was born. This feild mouse has no other functions except to eat, mate, and die. It doesnt care about inventing technology and doesnt participate in sports. Its complete purpose is SURVIVAL. So ingrained into the function of this mind is to fear birds. After all if a bird comes and eats the mouse, it destroys all of its main function. Its main purpose is to not be killed, and the most likely source of being killed is a bird flying down and killing it. Suppose this happened to the mouse, a hawk comes down, eats the mouse, installing huge doses of fear into the mind. Without the knowledge of bird species, all birds are identical to the mouse. Wings, two feet, and a beak mean DEATH. This is the main function of the mouse, to AVOID THE BIRDS. The mouse dies, the mind and conscience transfers over to a human body. Since the fear of birds was such a vital function of the mind prior, remnants of this fear might manifest into that of phobias that do not make any sense. The same goes for my fear of spiders. Some people have a fear of the dark, the ocean, fish, clowns, etc. (Fear of clowns might stem from a prior life as a circus animal in which Clowns might abuse them, it happens in the circus all the time)

So this is why we except Rebirth as it the only explination of some of what I had just said. If you have any other theories to the contrary please bring them up. Id love to hear them. There are many many other reasons we feel that Rebirth is a fact that we all go through. But this is a great way at understanding why it is quite possibly real.

Ive gotta run to class so I shall get into more aspects of Rebirth as well as enlightenment. And how a deluded mind perceiveing bardo (a state between births) could interpret this as an after life.....Near death experiences could very well be a sort of deja vu bringing the mind back to a prior experience within bardo. Within Bardo we may see anything, fire (hell) clouds and joy (heaven) or anything else. It depends on how trained the mind is when it enters this state after death.........
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Check out all 7 tracks from my debut album Earth Light on myspace right now!!!!!
www.myspace.com/ericjacksonguitar